Competitive Intelligence versus Espionage - Competitive Intelligence2024-03-29T08:28:35Zhttps://competitiveintelligence.ning.com/forum/topics/competitive-intelligence-versus-espionage?commentId=2036441%3AComment%3A70317&feed=yes&xn_auth=noThis is all very confusing. A…tag:competitiveintelligence.ning.com,2012-02-03:2036441:Comment:717492012-02-03T11:28:38.302Zklaus Söilenhttps://competitiveintelligence.ning.com/profile/klaussolbergsoilen
<p>This is all very confusing. Anyone who have read a book on CI will know that CI does not overlap with Espionage.</p>
<p>It is true we use a 2x2 matrix with moral/immoral and legal/illegal, but the the box named "the Gray Zone" is immoral but legal. Espionage is illegal. These outcomes in turn give four main strategies: </p>
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<p><span>Defensive</span><span>; CI,</span> <span>Security</span></p>
<p><span>Offensive</span><span>; INT</span></p>
<p><span>Ethical…</span></p>
<p>This is all very confusing. Anyone who have read a book on CI will know that CI does not overlap with Espionage.</p>
<p>It is true we use a 2x2 matrix with moral/immoral and legal/illegal, but the the box named "the Gray Zone" is immoral but legal. Espionage is illegal. These outcomes in turn give four main strategies: </p>
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<p><span>Defensive</span><span>; CI,</span> <span>Security</span></p>
<p><span>Offensive</span><span>; INT</span></p>
<p><span>Ethical</span> <span>off</span><span>.; OS</span></p>
<p><span>Ethical</span> <span>def</span><span>:;</span> <span>Counter</span> <span>INT</span></p>
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<p><span>Klaus</span></p> Nothing wrong in paying peopl…tag:competitiveintelligence.ning.com,2012-02-02:2036441:Comment:717372012-02-02T10:55:28.625ZArthur Weisshttps://competitiveintelligence.ning.com/profile/ArthurWeiss
<p>Nothing wrong in paying people to collect information.... </p>
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<p>(Spoken as a consultant who expects people to pay him to collect intelligence... and wasn't that Sherlock Holmes's occupation i.e. a consultant detective). </p>
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<p>The problem is paying people to give you information - as that's like offering a bribe. Or is it? </p>
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<p>It's also much more fun, sleeping with your information sources rather than paying them. (I can dream can't I? - spoken as a James Bond…</p>
<p>Nothing wrong in paying people to collect information.... </p>
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<p>(Spoken as a consultant who expects people to pay him to collect intelligence... and wasn't that Sherlock Holmes's occupation i.e. a consultant detective). </p>
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<p>The problem is paying people to give you information - as that's like offering a bribe. Or is it? </p>
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<p>It's also much more fun, sleeping with your information sources rather than paying them. (I can dream can't I? - spoken as a James Bond wannabe). </p> "Sherlock Holmes " -quote of…tag:competitiveintelligence.ning.com,2012-01-29:2036441:Comment:714872012-01-29T06:48:30.345ZVivek Raghuvanshihttps://competitiveintelligence.ning.com/profile/VivekRaghuvanshi
<p><span>"Sherlock Holmes " -quote of the day:</span><br/><br/><span>"And you don´t trust you own secret service?"</span><br/><br/><span>"Naturally not. They all spy on people for money."</span></p>
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<p><span>"Sherlock Holmes " -quote of the day:</span><br/><br/><span>"And you don´t trust you own secret service?"</span><br/><br/><span>"Naturally not. They all spy on people for money."</span></p>
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<p></p> Thank you all who posted here…tag:competitiveintelligence.ning.com,2012-01-08:2036441:Comment:706632012-01-08T06:31:11.508ZRaul Făthttps://competitiveintelligence.ning.com/profile/RaulFat
<p>Thank you all who posted here and helped to clarify things :)</p>
<p>Thank you all who posted here and helped to clarify things :)</p> Dear Arthur,
You are right.…tag:competitiveintelligence.ning.com,2012-01-08:2036441:Comment:706622012-01-08T06:18:07.952ZRaul Făthttps://competitiveintelligence.ning.com/profile/RaulFat
<p>Dear Arthur,</p>
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<p>You are right. I have not referred to the corporate espionage that is totally and always an illegal activity but to the governments' espionage. After your first post I thought 'what was wrong?!' but now I see the misunderstanding. Thank you for the interesting thoughts you have shared. </p>
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<p>Dear Arthur,</p>
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<p>You are right. I have not referred to the corporate espionage that is totally and always an illegal activity but to the governments' espionage. After your first post I thought 'what was wrong?!' but now I see the misunderstanding. Thank you for the interesting thoughts you have shared. </p>
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<p></p> Arthur,
You have hit the nai…tag:competitiveintelligence.ning.com,2012-01-08:2036441:Comment:708322012-01-08T05:10:35.589ZVivek Raghuvanshihttps://competitiveintelligence.ning.com/profile/VivekRaghuvanshi
<p>Arthur,</p>
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<p>You have hit the nail on the head.</p>
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<p>I was very impressed by the Israeli Snatch of <b>Mordechai Vanunu</b>.</p>
<p><a rel="nofollow" href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mordechai_Vanunu#Disclosure.2C_abduction_and_publication">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mordechai_Vanunu#Disclosure.2C_abducti...</a></p>
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<p>Salute to <b>Cheryl Ben Tov,</b> the ultimate Femme Fatale.</p>
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<p>Arthur,</p>
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<p>You have hit the nail on the head.</p>
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<p>I was very impressed by the Israeli Snatch of <b>Mordechai Vanunu</b>.</p>
<p><a rel="nofollow" href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mordechai_Vanunu#Disclosure.2C_abduction_and_publication">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mordechai_Vanunu#Disclosure.2C_abducti...</a></p>
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<p>Salute to <b>Cheryl Ben Tov,</b> the ultimate Femme Fatale.</p>
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<p></p> Interesting discussion. When…tag:competitiveintelligence.ning.com,2012-01-08:2036441:Comment:707462012-01-08T01:21:41.371ZArthur Weisshttps://competitiveintelligence.ning.com/profile/ArthurWeiss
<p>Interesting discussion. When I added my thoughts I assumed that espionage was corporate espionage and saw the Venn diagram suggesting an overlap to competitive intelligence, and so wrong. If you widen the definition however then the venn diagram makes some sense. <br></br><br></br>It is expected for governments to spy on other governments. However if the spies get caught they get punished - so it's illegal. <br></br><br></br>There is, however, another form of espionage that is legal in all cases. That's…</p>
<p>Interesting discussion. When I added my thoughts I assumed that espionage was corporate espionage and saw the Venn diagram suggesting an overlap to competitive intelligence, and so wrong. If you widen the definition however then the venn diagram makes some sense. <br/><br/>It is expected for governments to spy on other governments. However if the spies get caught they get punished - so it's illegal. <br/><br/>There is, however, another form of espionage that is legal in all cases. That's police "espionage" except it's normally called surveillance. The techniques however may be the same as those used in espionage including the use of bugs, and other surveillance tactics. <br/><br/>Some techniques however are immoral - for example, the honey trap approach to getting a criminal to incriminate themselves. Often courts throw out such cases and say the police tactics went too far. The importance of catching the criminal must play a part here. Catching a terrorist mastermind - e.g. Carlos the Jackal or Osama bin Leden and his cronies, etc. could be viewed as moral in pretty much all cases as the result saves 100s of lives. However catching a drug pusher would be more questionable. Nevertheless even with terrorism there are some techniques that are immoral or questionably immoral. Waterboarding, extraordinary rendition followed by torture, etc. are viewed as immoral by many (although not all) and this shows that morality is not always clearcut. <br/><br/>If you include this, you then have a continuum i.e. <br/><br/>Illegal espionage - where one government spies on another government or corporate espionage<br/>Legal espionage that's immoral - e.g some honey traps to catch criminals / some police stings, waterboarding/ torture to get people to talk, etc.<br/>Legal espionage that's moral - e.g. surveillance techniques, phone tapping that's authorised by a court, etc. <br/>Immoral competitive intelligence - e.g. misrepresentation, "trash archaeology", etc. (Generally this is legal but definitely unethical)<br/>Legal & moral competitive intelligence - which I hope we all do! </p> @Udo Hohlfeld,
Of course Esp…tag:competitiveintelligence.ning.com,2012-01-07:2036441:Comment:708302012-01-07T05:06:38.339ZVivek Raghuvanshihttps://competitiveintelligence.ning.com/profile/VivekRaghuvanshi
<p>@Udo Hohlfeld,</p>
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<p>Of course Espionage is illegal for the government whose data is stolen and espionage tools are illegal for the corporate world.</p>
<p>In the race for Economic Supremacy of Nations, I wonder what is legal in National Interest is not legal for Corporate Interest.</p>
<p>But maybe they should have used Competitive Intelligence rather than Human Intelligence tools to catch Osama Bin Laden.</p>
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<p>I wonder why they did not use ONLY Competitive Intelligence…</p>
<p>@Udo Hohlfeld,</p>
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<p>Of course Espionage is illegal for the government whose data is stolen and espionage tools are illegal for the corporate world.</p>
<p>In the race for Economic Supremacy of Nations, I wonder what is legal in National Interest is not legal for Corporate Interest.</p>
<p>But maybe they should have used Competitive Intelligence rather than Human Intelligence tools to catch Osama Bin Laden.</p>
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<p>I wonder why they did not use ONLY Competitive Intelligence tools while hunting Osama Bin Laden.</p>
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<p>Every tool has its Pros and Cons and Fixes.</p>
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<p>Since purpose and targets are different, therefore Espionage tactics are legal for that agency which extracts information to serve its National Interest, of course espionage will be illegal to the counter-intelligence section of any government whose data is stolen.</p>
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<p>For corporate using espionage tools is illegal and for Governments espionage tools are legal for the extracting intelligence agency and illegal for the counter intelligence agency whose data is stolen.</p>
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<p>Maybe SCIP should preach to CIA and FSB and Mossad to use ONLY Competitive Intelligence tools.</p>
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<p>One's target segment is the enemy and businesses target segment are just markets.</p>
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<p>I am in no away advocating espionage but getting you to see why Governments use espionage tools.</p>
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<p>I hope you understand the difference between what is legal and ethical for the Government and what is legal and ethical for the corporate world .</p>
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<p>The playing grounds are different. One collects Intelligence against the ENEMY and one collects intelligence against a COMPETITOR.</p>
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<p>And herein lies the difference.</p>
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<p>@ <span>Udo Hohlfeld, it will be a really great idea if you could convince BND to use and follow SCIP Code of Ethics ONLY.</span></p>
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<p><span>Ha..ha..ha..</span></p>
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<p></p> I agree that CI is totally LE…tag:competitiveintelligence.ning.com,2012-01-06:2036441:Comment:705262012-01-06T09:55:20.824ZRaul Făthttps://competitiveintelligence.ning.com/profile/RaulFat
<p>I agree that CI is totally LEGAL. Even when some grey areas are touched it is still a question related to cultural values and not a legal matter. Considering both its aims and its means (tools, techniques, resources, ...) Competitive Intelligence is always legal.</p>
<p>Espionage is always illegal if we see it by its aims - I agree. We say that espionage appeals to illegal means (tools, techniques, ...) but are all these means entirely illegal?! I agree that most of them are illegal but…</p>
<p>I agree that CI is totally LEGAL. Even when some grey areas are touched it is still a question related to cultural values and not a legal matter. Considering both its aims and its means (tools, techniques, resources, ...) Competitive Intelligence is always legal.</p>
<p>Espionage is always illegal if we see it by its aims - I agree. We say that espionage appeals to illegal means (tools, techniques, ...) but are all these means entirely illegal?! I agree that most of them are illegal but really all?! I mentioned above an example explaining how the modern espionage supposes a lot of analyses of public information (see <a rel="nofollow" href="http://www.thetechherald.com/articles/Op-Ed-Gasp-The-CIA-uses-open-source-intelligence" target="_blank">http://www.thetechherald.com/articles/Op-Ed-Gasp-The-CIA-uses-open-...</a>), an activity that by itself is a legal one - am I wrong? Even if only 1% of espionage's activity consists in processing the publicly available information (legal activity), can we consider the espionage entirely illegal? That's my question.</p>
<p></p> Vivek,
Espionage is always il…tag:competitiveintelligence.ning.com,2012-01-06:2036441:Comment:707412012-01-06T08:58:29.789ZUdo Hohlfeldhttps://competitiveintelligence.ning.com/profile/UdoHohlfeld
<p>Vivek,</p>
<p>Espionage is always illegal as it hurts existing laws in all countries - the aim of espionage is to obtain core information / data about economic, military, political, scientific, .... targets with the help of unethical and illegal means. Only the reason that it is conducted by "Government" to serve national interests does not make it legal.</p>
<p>There is a clear distinction between Espionage and Competitive Intelligence and I agree with Arthur that there is NO…</p>
<p>Vivek,</p>
<p>Espionage is always illegal as it hurts existing laws in all countries - the aim of espionage is to obtain core information / data about economic, military, political, scientific, .... targets with the help of unethical and illegal means. Only the reason that it is conducted by "Government" to serve national interests does not make it legal.</p>
<p>There is a clear distinction between Espionage and Competitive Intelligence and I agree with Arthur that there is NO overlap.</p>
<p>Best, Udo</p>