Dumpster Diving (Trash Archaeology, Garbology etc.) and CI - Competitive Intelligence2024-03-28T17:18:43Zhttps://competitiveintelligence.ning.com/forum/topics/dumpster-diving-trash?feed=yes&xn_auth=noI agree totally on this. Nati…tag:competitiveintelligence.ning.com,2011-04-24:2036441:Comment:499562011-04-24T09:56:40.529ZArthur Weisshttps://competitiveintelligence.ning.com/profile/ArthurWeiss
I agree totally on this. National intelligence people are trained in the arts of HUMINT plus intelligence approaches / definition. Think about the KIT concept - originating from Jan Herring, who came from the national intelligence community. The rigour and some of the models (e.g. the intelligence cycle) also came from national intelligence. That's not to say that such ideas wouldn't have come from marketers - they just didn't get there first.<br></br>
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Many years ago, I was speaking to a…
I agree totally on this. National intelligence people are trained in the arts of HUMINT plus intelligence approaches / definition. Think about the KIT concept - originating from Jan Herring, who came from the national intelligence community. The rigour and some of the models (e.g. the intelligence cycle) also came from national intelligence. That's not to say that such ideas wouldn't have come from marketers - they just didn't get there first.<br/>
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Many years ago, I was speaking to a successful (and well known) CI consultant who came from a military intelligence background. He told me that he'd noticed that many of his colleagues failed when they tried to enter the commercial intelligence world for two main reasons:<br/>
1) budgets - generally speaking national intelligence people, unless at a very very senior level, don't have to set budgets or even work towards highly constrained budgets. This proved a problem for them.<br/>
2) ethics - national intelligence people found it very difficult to restrict and limit their approaches due to ethical constraints. When you are used to considerable freedom in what you do, it is very difficult to stop practices that were quite acceptable previously. If you do, it's also harder to be as efficient as you aren't used to working under such limitations. (I guess it would be like comparing a disabled athlete with a regular one. When you are used to working with a disability, you don't find it a problem and can actually excel. However switching from one to the other is going to cause problems, and is likely to mean that you fail to reach your previous heights). I agree with you here. Unfort…tag:competitiveintelligence.ning.com,2011-04-24:2036441:Comment:499522011-04-24T08:06:19.013Zklaus Söilenhttps://competitiveintelligence.ning.com/profile/klaussolbergsoilen
<p>I agree with you here. Unfortunately I think that what is causing the major problem is that state INT people take with them their state INT ethics and try to apply it in business, where it is quickly deemed too agressive. </p>
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<p>It raises the question, what value do state INT people bring with them? I do not think it is analysis. In Sweden state INT come to us in the Social Sciences to learn analysis. It is not the technology either. Most of that is developed by privat firms, on…</p>
<p>I agree with you here. Unfortunately I think that what is causing the major problem is that state INT people take with them their state INT ethics and try to apply it in business, where it is quickly deemed too agressive. </p>
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<p>It raises the question, what value do state INT people bring with them? I do not think it is analysis. In Sweden state INT come to us in the Social Sciences to learn analysis. It is not the technology either. Most of that is developed by privat firms, on our campuses etc. I think it is more a training in seperating nice to know from need to know and of treating information gathering from an all-source perspective. I also think it at least used to be a training in HUMINT that our market research people did not have and a training in speculatitive thinking and what-if scenarios. What do you think?</p>
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<p>Easter greetings,</p>
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<p>Klaus</p> It's an interesting question…tag:competitiveintelligence.ning.com,2011-04-24:2036441:Comment:498492011-04-24T07:57:32.611Zklaus Söilenhttps://competitiveintelligence.ning.com/profile/klaussolbergsoilen
<p>It's an interesting question whether CI is more about looking for documents while as MR is more about looking at products/services. It also makes an interesting question for Marketing Intelligence. In my view it is more a question of the level and width we are operating at. CI handles the problem from a data/digit level and from an all-organization level. Intelligence does not distiguish from where the information comes from, if it is from products or documents, but if the information is…</p>
<p>It's an interesting question whether CI is more about looking for documents while as MR is more about looking at products/services. It also makes an interesting question for Marketing Intelligence. In my view it is more a question of the level and width we are operating at. CI handles the problem from a data/digit level and from an all-organization level. Intelligence does not distiguish from where the information comes from, if it is from products or documents, but if the information is truely useful, actionable. We also see that the marketing profession has been moving more towards documents and information with new technologies (CRM, faster computers, data mining etc), which again has paved the way for Market Intelligence. <a href="http://www.amazon.com/Market-Intelligence-Building-Strategic-Insight/dp/8763002027/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1303631625&sr=8-1">http://www.amazon.com/Market-Intelligence-Building-Strategic-Insight/dp/8763002027/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1303631625&sr=8-1</a></p>
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<p>Your second distinction I agree more with. State and Military Intelligence should be focused on saving lives if they want to defend their existence vis a vis tax payers. We see these debates blush up in different countries when politicians want to use their intelligence apparatus to gain a Competitive Advantage. Agents will then say things like "I do not want to die for GE" etc. The debate was also hot when Clinton used spies/eavesdroppeing in trade negotiations with ex. Japan. (see my dissertation). </p>
<p><a href="http://www.amazon.de/Wirtschaftsspionage-Verhandlungen-informations%C3%B6konomischer-wirtschaftsethischer-Perspektive/dp/3640563425/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1303631724&sr=8-2">http://www.amazon.de/Wirtschaftsspionage-Verhandlungen-informations%C3%B6konomischer-wirtschaftsethischer-Perspektive/dp/3640563425/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1303631724&sr=8-2</a></p>
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<p>Happy Easter!</p>
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<p>Klaus</p> As far as I know, the key dif…tag:competitiveintelligence.ning.com,2011-04-24:2036441:Comment:498372011-04-24T02:29:37.981ZArthur Weisshttps://competitiveintelligence.ning.com/profile/ArthurWeiss
As far as I know, the key difference between garbage analysis for MR versus CI is that MR isn't looking at documents but at yoghurt, tinned tomatos, pizza boxes and milk cartons, etc. i.e when you go through somebody's garbage for MR the aim is to see what they are using and not what they are saying.<br />
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It's also always done with consent of the garbage owner.<br />
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On a national defense / intelligence level it will be looking at what is being said or written. However this is not CI but military /…
As far as I know, the key difference between garbage analysis for MR versus CI is that MR isn't looking at documents but at yoghurt, tinned tomatos, pizza boxes and milk cartons, etc. i.e when you go through somebody's garbage for MR the aim is to see what they are using and not what they are saying.<br />
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It's also always done with consent of the garbage owner.<br />
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On a national defense / intelligence level it will be looking at what is being said or written. However this is not CI but military / national intelligence. It's really important that this is seen as separate from business intelligence - and that the practices are kept separate.<br />
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If I was working for MI5/MI6/the CIA and was told to place telephone bugs / hidden cameras in the home of somebody suspected of planning a terrorist bomb attack I'd have no problems at all. Similarly I'd happily go through their garbage looking for clues. The aim is to save lives! This is completely different from business intelligence where the aim is to gain competitive advantage over a competitor. Not really nosy. I just like…tag:competitiveintelligence.ning.com,2011-04-24:2036441:Comment:499362011-04-24T02:20:26.985ZArthur Weisshttps://competitiveintelligence.ning.com/profile/ArthurWeiss
Not really nosy. I just like to keep up with the new relating to CI.<br />
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Good CI, of course, means monitoring your industry on a continual basis. As my "industry" is the CI industry, I try and keep an eye on what is happening, what new techniques are up-and-coming and what are best practices.
Not really nosy. I just like to keep up with the new relating to CI.<br />
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Good CI, of course, means monitoring your industry on a continual basis. As my "industry" is the CI industry, I try and keep an eye on what is happening, what new techniques are up-and-coming and what are best practices. Klaus
Richard's prior involv…tag:competitiveintelligence.ning.com,2011-04-24:2036441:Comment:499352011-04-24T02:16:57.485ZArthur Weisshttps://competitiveintelligence.ning.com/profile/ArthurWeiss
Klaus<br />
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Richard's prior involvement as an Israeli Army officer should have taught him the importance of ethical and moral conduct. It's one thing drummed into Israeli Army officers that they need to be as moral as feasible taking into account their role. Of course there are aberrations - but these get dealt with via the legal system. So again, being able to tell the difference between what is moral and ethical is crucial.<br />
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Further, if we go the route of what people did prior to getting into CI,…
Klaus<br />
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Richard's prior involvement as an Israeli Army officer should have taught him the importance of ethical and moral conduct. It's one thing drummed into Israeli Army officers that they need to be as moral as feasible taking into account their role. Of course there are aberrations - but these get dealt with via the legal system. So again, being able to tell the difference between what is moral and ethical is crucial.<br />
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Further, if we go the route of what people did prior to getting into CI, there are many who were involved in national intelligence / defense in one way or another - especially in the US CI community. (It's much rarer in Europe, where most people in CI came from a business background from my experience).<br />
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The key thing is to separate national intelligence experience from business intelligence norms. They are different - and if this aspect is blurred then you are going to get ethical problems. What is acceptable for national intelligence will often be highly unethical or illegal for business intelligence.<br />
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Perhaps that is now the problem - that this blurring of what is ethical has got to the stage where some people can't see the wood for the trees.
Bonnie,
RE: "Richard Horo…tag:competitiveintelligence.ning.com,2011-04-22:2036441:Comment:498352011-04-22T20:57:14.767Zmonica nixonhttps://competitiveintelligence.ning.com/profile/monicanixon32
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<p>Bonnie,</p>
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<p>RE: "Richard Horowitz does not actively or otherwise provide legal counsel on an outsourcing or any other basis to SCIP. His views are his own."</p>
<p> While it may be true that Horowitz is not <span style="text-decoration: underline;">actively</span> providing counsel to SCIP, it is irrefutable that he did indeed help formulate the SCIP Code of Ethics and that he had a hand in other policy related matters. See here regarding the COE, a series of emails…</p>
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<p>Bonnie,</p>
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<p>RE: "Richard Horowitz does not actively or otherwise provide legal counsel on an outsourcing or any other basis to SCIP. His views are his own."</p>
<p> While it may be true that Horowitz is not <span style="text-decoration: underline;">actively</span> providing counsel to SCIP, it is irrefutable that he did indeed help formulate the SCIP Code of Ethics and that he had a hand in other policy related matters. See here regarding the COE, a series of emails between Horowitz and the Chairman of SCIP's Ethics Committee Carl Ward back in 1999 : <a href="http://www.rhesq.com/CI/Code%20Correspondence.pdf" target="_blank">http://www.rhesq.com/CI/Code%20Correspondence.pdf</a></p>
<p>So, are you not aware of his history with SCIP and his involvement in the creation of the Code of Ethics? Wow, I mean here we have a man who assisted in the creation of the Code and who is publicly saying its OK to misrepresent oneself (see Klaus's posting) and also stipulating that digging through trash is OK legally- uh perhaps in some jurisdiction but not all, and what about ETHICALLY? Good God no wonder CI is having such a hard time as a profession and that SCIP is in such sad disrepute.</p>
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<p>I'm with Klaus when he says "Well, I can imagine the PR situation at SCIP right now, not a comfortable situation to be be in. Accusations of lying, bad publicity, and what looks like a contradiction."</p>
<p>Well said, Klaus! Contradiction and bad publicity, indeed.</p> Well, I can imagine the PR si…tag:competitiveintelligence.ning.com,2011-04-22:2036441:Comment:496352011-04-22T17:34:40.008Zklaus Söilenhttps://competitiveintelligence.ning.com/profile/klaussolbergsoilen
Well, I can imagine the PR situation at SCIP right now, not a comfortable situation to be be in. Accusations of lying, bad publicity, and what looks like a contradiction.<br />
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And all this because of a nosy guy like Arthur (:)E2E)...<br />
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Klaus
Well, I can imagine the PR situation at SCIP right now, not a comfortable situation to be be in. Accusations of lying, bad publicity, and what looks like a contradiction.<br />
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And all this because of a nosy guy like Arthur (:)E2E)...<br />
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Klaus I could not help noticing tha…tag:competitiveintelligence.ning.com,2011-04-22:2036441:Comment:496342011-04-22T17:19:56.855Zklaus Söilenhttps://competitiveintelligence.ning.com/profile/klaussolbergsoilen
I could not help noticing that Richard thinks it is OK/ethical to pose as student at trade shows: "Whi l e aga ins t mos t corpor a t e ethical policies, claiming to be a s tudent will in itself not trigger liability. I t<br></br>
is not mi s r epr e s ent a t ion alone tha t triggers liability, but a misrepresentation tha t induces a br e a ch of<br></br>
confidentiality. Whi l e the r e is room for a de epe r analysis of this matter, the issue is in actuality not<br></br>
dr ama t i c ; claims of being a…
I could not help noticing that Richard thinks it is OK/ethical to pose as student at trade shows: "Whi l e aga ins t mos t corpor a t e ethical policies, claiming to be a s tudent will in itself not trigger liability. I t<br/>
is not mi s r epr e s ent a t ion alone tha t triggers liability, but a misrepresentation tha t induces a br e a ch of<br/>
confidentiality. Whi l e the r e is room for a de epe r analysis of this matter, the issue is in actuality not<br/>
dr ama t i c ; claims of being a s tudent do not produc e answe r s cont a ining t r ade secrets. ". <a rel="nofollow" href="http://www.rhesq.com/CI/The%20Legal%20Aspects%20of%20Trade%20Show%20Intelligence.pdf" target="_blank">http://www.rhesq.com/CI/The%20Legal%20Aspects%20of%20Trade%20Show%2...</a><br/>
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I do not know about US practices here, but in Europe posing as a student/under false flag would be considered unethical by most.<br/>
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I dont know but searching ethical advice in business by an ex. Israeli Army officer may not always be a good idea, even though I am sure he is a good lawyer (and a member of this forum too).<br/>
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Klaus Hi Bonnie,
On his home site…tag:competitiveintelligence.ning.com,2011-04-22:2036441:Comment:499322011-04-22T17:12:37.276Zklaus Söilenhttps://competitiveintelligence.ning.com/profile/klaussolbergsoilen
Hi Bonnie,<br />
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On his home site Richard says: "He is also the author of the Society of Competitive Intelligence Professional's (SCIP) Policy Analysis on Competitive Intelligence and the Economic Espionage Act, has advised SCIP on the revision of its Code of Ethics, and is on the faculty of the Fuld Gilad Herring Academy of Competitive Intelligence where he lectures on the legal aspects of competitive intelligence". <a href="http://www.rhesq.com/" target="_blank">http://www.rhesq.com/</a><br />
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If the…
Hi Bonnie,<br />
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On his home site Richard says: "He is also the author of the Society of Competitive Intelligence Professional's (SCIP) Policy Analysis on Competitive Intelligence and the Economic Espionage Act, has advised SCIP on the revision of its Code of Ethics, and is on the faculty of the Fuld Gilad Herring Academy of Competitive Intelligence where he lectures on the legal aspects of competitive intelligence". <a href="http://www.rhesq.com/" target="_blank">http://www.rhesq.com/</a><br />
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If the man is lying about his involvement with SCIP I guess there will be further reactions from your/SCIP side. As it stands it does not look very flattering.<br />
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Best, Klaus